The SEO Agency Rollercoaster with Callum Gracie of Otto Media Group Pty Ltd

Andrew:

Welcome to the SEO Agency Rollercoaster Podcast, your go-to show for candid conversations with agency leaders that supercharge the ambitions of up-and-coming SEO entrepreneurs. Here we break down the strategies, stumbles, and success stories you need to start, grow, and scale a thriving SEO agency. Consider this your roadmap to real-world agency wins. 

My name is Andrew Zarudnyi, and I’m part of the Content Marketing team at SE Ranking, and I’m joined by my co-host and fellow SE Ranking Success Team member, Maksym Blyzniuk.

Today, we’re thrilled to welcome a guest all the way from Australia’s capital, Canberra. Say hello to Callum Gracie of Otto Media Group and GiaAI. Callum has been at the forefront of integrating AI into SEO and web design, helping Australian service businesses transform their websites into 24/7 lead generating machines. We’ll be diving deep into his entrepreneurial journey, agency evolution, and his vision for the future of AI and digital marketing. Buckle up! It’s going to be an insightful ride. 

Alright, giving the word to you, guys. Let’s take it away!

Callum:

My goodness!

Maksym:

Okay. Awesome! Callum, thanks so much for joining us today. So just to get started, I have a question about your background in general. So as far as we’re concerned, before diving into digital marketing and the SEO world, you were quite deeply immersed with music and even had a side hustle as a DJ and maybe you still do. So I just wonder like, why the change? Why did you decide to go for the digital SEO world? And do you believe that on that shift and your background in music has actually affected the way you work within your agency at this time?

Callum:

Fantastic question, Maksym. Thank you for asking that. Well, it’s quite an interesting story. I’ll keep it very brief. I started out as a teacher. That was interesting. And then I ended up having the opportunity to perform music with a band called the Baker Boys Band. So I played the trumpet and saxophone, which is always fun. Now, the fun, the cool thing about this band is it’s actually part of a much bigger operation. And that’s actually part of a marketing company called the International Artists League, which is based in New York. And they have a band in each state, in each city.

And I was actually given the opportunity. I started doing some consulting and some management for that. And then I was able to build the Canberra team to about 30 creatives, which was, which was fun. And then I was given the opportunity to launch the Queensland branch and I was able to get that up to over a hundred creatives and build it up to a point where we were doing eight, nine, 10 events in one night. So we’re managing a lot, a lot there. 

And I was able to work closely with the marketing team to truly understand how they can make a collective of people, of individual artists come together to be an amazing band, even though it’s different each time. Well, it’s not each time, but it’s, yeah, it can be the Baker Boys Band can be one of many. 

So from there, life was fantastic. I was working closely with the marketing team in New York. I was managing so many amazing musicians and artists and photographers and videographers. And then I was doing lots of gigs. I was performing full-time at a lot of weddings. 

And then was COVID hit, this was in 2020. And then that’s where everything just lost. I lost everything. All of my gigs got canceled. There was just a massive shutdown in Australia. It was absolutely chaotic. And naturally being a trumpet player, I was the first to be let go of in the band when they had the massive reduction of who can be at events. I think it got down to about 40. 

So I was left with, yeah, no money. It was a commission based job. And then I thought, man, what do I do? And then that’s when… luckily, I had teaching in my back pockets. I was able to jump into relief teaching, which was really good. Got me over the line, but I needed to make money. So I thought, well, what can I do to make people need me? 

So I became a DJ. I said, I’m going to be a DJ now. So the DJ didn’t start until COVID hit, which made me realize that that’s the thing that I needed to do to be able to, yeah, make it so that I can, I can grow it. And knowing how successful the Baker Boys Band was with their digital marketing, I was able to deep dive into SEO. And I got absolutely obsessed with it. 

So much so that I was able to turn it into a big moneymaker for me. And yeah, in the space of just 12 months, I had a side hustle of over $100,000, which was just insane for me. And then I thought, well, if I’ve done it for me, it’s definitely a repeatable process. So I did it for my siblings and two other, yeah, who are now amazing DJ and artists in Melbourne and they’re killing it. And again, they’re making fantastic money as well. And they’re loving it. I thought, alright, Otto Media is a thing. It wasn’t official, but I thought I needed to jump on the bandwagon and go all in. 

So I ended up taking a job for a digital marketing agency here in Canberra. And yeah, I was lucky enough for them to give me the opportunity without a background of digital marketing. I didn’t have any degrees. And so I was extremely grateful for that opportunity. And that was for about 12 months. So this was about 14 months ago now. 

And then the time came, I knew it was time for me to give it a crack myself. And I did, I dove straight into it. I took part in an amazing academy, which I’m still very much involved in—the Nathan Gotch SEO Academy, which is an unbelievable training platform. And Nathan Gotch is one of my extremely inspired by him. And I think he’s just such a wonderful asset to the SEO community and just learning everything from him as a mentor and as a trainer. He’s just been wonderful. 

So that has sort of set the roadmap for me to say, okay, everything that I knew from what I’ve learned from changing things, tweaking things to then actually putting in a process that’s proven to work and then put the two together to combine an ultimate SEO sort of powerhouse system that I’ve been able to build my client base. Yeah, and I’ve now got 42 clients, yeah, in the space of 14 months. 

So I’m very lucky, but it’s very chaotic as well. And it’s all about systems now. It’s just, that’s all I do every day. It’s just systems and processes because I think it’s just a little bit bigger than me now, which is cool. That’s my story. Take it away, Maksym!

Maksym:

Thank you. That’s a lot of context. That’s quite a switch. That’s really impressive. You’ve made so many changes there. Just fascinating. Andrew, would you like to follow up with a different question? 

Andrew:

I’m wondering what is there specifically within you? What was that moment that pushed you to become your own man, especially when you have a lot of, well, you have a family, have responsibilities, you’re moving from a stable job. What does that conversation within you sound like? How did you push yourself to just have so much responsibility—from going from a regular job to just being your own man working? Because if you work for yourself, you’re working 24/7 basically. So what was that push for you specifically? How did you motivate yourself?

Callum:

Yeah, that’s a really, really good question. So for me, I mean, I am extremely driven. I mean, I’ve always been like that. I needed to prove to myself that I have what it takes to be successful. So I did it for myself first. I then did it for people in my close circle. They were smashing it, then moved to a great agency here in Canberra. And I was able to, yeah, even just in the first month of working for an agency, was able to get over $18,000 in monthly revenue for the company, which is amazing, which just showed that my true passion for SEO and for digital marketing and how it can actually help businesses. 

I guess, yeah, they took my call, they met with me and they got on board with my vision of the true power that a kick-ass SEO strategy has. I mean, it is only one piece of the puzzle, but it’s a very powerful piece. And it’s something that I love that you can make something great without investing a lot of money. And it’s really the backbone and it’s almost like a safety net. If anything, I always look at SEO as the safety net and then the paid advertising is the jet fuel, which is just going to let you take off. But if that runs out or the tap gets turned off, you’re going to fall back on a pretty beautiful cloud, an SEO cloud of just ongoing leads. 

So that’s where I think that, yeah, we can help so many business owners. So for me at the agency, the hardest part for me is I was all in to be there. But the fact they gave me the opportunity to be there was absolutely incredible. For me, it was a personal decision. My terms of the contract with remuneration got cut and the goalposts had been moved a few times. And it just got to this point where I thought, okay. I was doing the sales as BDM. I was also pushing for the systems of SEO to be implemented as they were very different to what I’ve sort of known and been taught through the Gotch Academy. 

Yeah. So that was, it sort of got to this point where I thought, okay, it’s time to go. And it was not good timing. We just had, our son was about to be born a week later. And so I thought, well, let’s just call it Otto Media. And so my son’s name is Otto and I feel bad for Gia, who’s our daughter, our first daughter. So I thought, well, I better sign something up for her. I don’t want to have that awkward conversation later in life. 

So we registered an AI company called GiaAI, which really is just more of a passion and a love for me. And I’ll be the first to put my hands up to say that I wish I was the guy that has all the brains in that space, but I’m very grateful and lucky to have a partner based in the US who is absolutely obsessed with AI. And I guess it’s more like I know what I want.

Andrew:

A segue: you mentioned your children’s names and I wanted to specifically ask you, what were your goals basically when you started Otto Media? Did you have a vision for the first year at least? Was there a game plan? Or did you just have a desire to do something, you found the right people? And the same question for GiaAI, if you could just tell us what are the goals of both of these companies that you’re involved in?

Callum:

You know, even understanding your background, even, yeah, with, with SE Ranking, it’s, you’re the motivation behind AI processes, even just on that platform is, is just incredible. Yeah. Credit to you and what you guys are doing. You’re far more ahead of anything that we’re planning, but what we’re most excited about is utilizing and harnessing AI.

It’s not to do SEO. It’s to fast track and speed up SEO efforts so that we can do more. But you’ve always got to have that human element and it’s more of a safety net of not knowing exactly how dangerous AI is, but using it to speed up the processes, fast track the processes. But ultimately we’ve still got to lay down those true foundations through, yeah, just through our systems and a human team.

Andrew:

And what about Otto Media Group? Was there like a vision that you wanted just to work on web design? Did you want to work on SEO? Did you want to work on video or social media? Is there like a certain vision that you have for Otto Media and what’s the scope?

Callum:

So I started out just thinking I’m doing SEO and that’s all I want to be is the best SEO company that people can trust. And it’s grown naturally, has completely changed direction of where I expected it to go. So what sort of happened is we sort of found now it’s although SEO when we even when we started and with AI has changed so much that now it’s a lot more about brand awareness and content.

And now with AI Overviews and yeah, all those LLMs coming to play, it’s more important than ever that you focus on getting people talking about you. And it’s not just your website that you focus on. So we’re doing a big push and a big move into something quite new here in Australia, digital PR, which I’m not sure what, how is that? That’s probably quite a big thing for you guys. We’re a bit slow in Australia, but pretty much getting publications to talk about you, to get those really strong backlinks to really help push your SEO. But more importantly, getting you featured in those AI Overviews and AI search results.

Andrew:

You’re like the living personification of somebody who, like when you were a teacher, thank you for doing that, for being a teacher. I feel they’re always underappreciated. But I’m just blown away by your transition and how quickly you’re just switching gears. So I’m really excited to even have this conversation in a year’s time to see where you are. Maybe you’ll even outpace SE Ranking at that point with all the things that you have planned. So let’s make a transition to the present. 

Maksym:

Right. Yeah, I just love what you mentioned about brand awareness in general. And this is specifically the question that I had for you. 

So what would you say were the things and most specifically the values that make you stand out in the Australian market compared to some other agencies? Do you think that there are any specific branding principles that you bring into the company that make you special? Yeah, a bit of context.

Callum:

Yeah, I’m in this to serve. That’s my mantra. That’s my model. I’m here to help people. Okay, so going back a step, the first year is all about learning for me. It’s not about prospecting and going out and making all of those calls. Whilst I had to do a bit of it in the beginning, it’s now for me, the first year, even the first two years is about just getting the systems right. And through, I don’t know, through the content gods and posting lots of content and people talk, people hear what we’re doing. I love sharing my clients’ wins. Every win they have is my win, which I just love.

A lot of agencies want to hide that and they don’t want to sort of tell people. Whereas I sort of thought, well, if I’m doing the best job I can, what have I got to hide? I might as well just shout out all the wins that my clients are having. And I think the value for us is we’re just doing the best we can. We want to innovate, always. We want to try and push the boundaries and challenge ourselves and be on the forefront of, again, technology and what’s available to us. And yeah, in terms of how we like to view our clients, it’s a partnership, long-term, all-in to make their business and help them succeed. 

And that’s sort of how we kind of naturally moved into a different direction because I could just see this through my own studies that SEO is changing significantly, even just in the last 12 months. And we’re moving with them to more brand awareness. Again, yeah, content is massive. 

We’ve now got full-time content managers and our social media managers based in Brazil. And so she’s just working full-time. So credit to Sarah. She’s amazing, by the way. So she’s working really hard in pushing contents and just naturally people are just coming over and we’re sort of at that point now we’re kind of ready to just like it’s gone way bigger than I expected a lot faster than I expected. And I think it’s more important now to, I want to educate people, but not jump to sort of save them. Now it’s more about guiding them to say, look, this is where you’re at. This is what’s realistic and this is what you can do yourself. That’s very easy to do and that’s going to give you the macro. Don’t worry about the macro just for now, because at some point that’s when they’ll come knocking where I will be ready to take them on and they’ll be ready to scale. But I think they love the fact that we share everything. I love it. I absolutely love it. Gotta preach it. Until I grow up.

Andrew:

I have a follow-up question here before we go to the next one—about your team’s composition. So do you try to build an in-house team or do you try to build good freelance connections? Or do you have maybe like a partner that sort of take care of something or maybe you have to even have like an agency that takes care of content for you, for example, just whatever the situation is and what is your ideal situation for you? What would you want it to be?

Callum:

100% in-house, that we cannot align or calibrate ourselves to our mission if we are going to outsource anything. Nothing is outsourced. Now in terms of building the team, this is a really interesting one because I’ve always thought, it’s, we’re going to have our team here. Everyone’s going to be able to talk amongst ourselves, but we’ve found ourselves—I’ve got to be how I say this, the talent that we have purchased, I think that based on the value of what we can bring into the company to what we can deliver out to our clients. 

So for example, whilst I would love to spend $130,000 on an SEO manager, that talent, I’m just not in that position yet to be able to have that luxury here, but I know the talents out there. And so we have an incredible technical SEO specialist who I can actually afford that’s based in India and he is all in and he is so grateful because we are paying him so well, but it’s so affordable for us. And it actually allows us to focus on the quality of what we can deliver to our clients. 

So it’s actually, I guess the way I’m looking at it now for the value, I would much rather get someone who is so talented, so experienced and way better than me that can actually help get us to where we need to be rather than saying, okay, well, I can afford a junior here in Australia. So that’s sort where I’m at. And I’ve been able to sort of keep that open mind and through that, I’ve been able to build this based on a remote first platform or service. 

So we don’t have an office. We do have team members, one here in Canberra, another one in Melbourne. We’ve got India, Pakistan, Brazil, and our content writer is based in Japan. So shout out to Charita, he’s a legend. Yeah, so we are all over. And again, even that has its challenges. So that’s another story. That’ll be our next episode, I think. Yeah. 

Maksym:

Amazing! So considering that all of those people being all over the globe, so since you’re just trying to build an in-house team, but all those people building all over the place, I’m just wondering how do you work with your teammates? How do you work with both your employees just to foster that ability for creativity, consistency and transparency? Like, is there a specific way you pick people that have the same values or is this something you just try to nurture when they’re already hired for your company?

Callum:

Yeah, that was a really good question. So I was so lucky that part of the Gotch Academy, there is an incredible talent, her name is Zia, and she’s been with me from the very beginning and she’s still with me today and bless her. She is one of the most talented, most driven, hardworking individuals who I just absolutely adore. And so I was able to partner with her from the beginning and get this up. And then she had other friends that she was, but she’s based in the Philippines. And then she introduced me to a content writer who was able to help with our script writing, which helped with all of my content, my social, all my videos, shout out to Chloe and the challenge that we have working remotely, I have learned that very quickly. 

So one big difficulty is time zones and understanding the importance of alignment in time. So we do have a crossover time period. We do try to be working in Australian hours. So nine to five business hours, we do align that where we can, for example, Harsh who’s based in India and Mehdi who’s our designer who’s based in Pakistan, there’s a massive difference in time, but there’s a three and a four hour window where there’s an overlap. 

So that’s the overlap period where we all come together and that’s where it’s game on. We have all of our meetings, discuss everything, we realign, we talk about the processes on how can things be improved, where did you get stuck, where’s the bottlenecks, look at the results that we’re getting for our clients. And the other big one, which is a hidden gem that no one talks about, but I think is just amazing, is time tracking through a software and a platform called Time Doctor. 

So we’re able to have our team track their time and track their work. And what I love the most is we can see how our team is working through the systems that we are implementing. We can see in real time just where they’re getting stuck or where they’re taking quite a lot of time. And then from that, we’re able to calculate the time on each task. So we know that when a task comes in for X, we know that it’s going to take this long to get it done and you can sort of track it throughout the time and it just allows you to say, okay, we can fast track this here. We’re spending a lot of time here. How can we fix that? 

Another big one that I found working with this team remotely is they have trouble speaking up. And that’s a really big thing that we want to talk about. And that we do, we’re very open at Otto Media is the importance of people feeling valued and to speak up if they are feeling overwhelmed or the workload is too much.

We did have one of our team members who didn’t speak up, but we could just see so many things were waiting on this person. And then, yeah, we had our other SEO expert that we could see because we track how much time the things take. We knew that they were under, like they had time. So we were able to take that and put that over there because it was drowning in work and it was hard for us to see. So that’s a really cool thing. So Time Doctor is a great one. 

And then leveraging other fantastic software is really important too. So we use ClickUp as our CRM which I love. That’s a really, really cool tool. We’ve sort of tried all of them. Monday.com started there. We’ve done PipeDriver, done HubSpot, we’ve done, and we’ve landed on ClickUp and I absolutely love it. 

But the best thing we ever did was hired a full-time operations manager. She’s fantastic. And she’s one that is in charge of the deliverables, in charge of always improving the systems and challenging the systems. And I just love our weekly catch up where we all get to just pull things apart and just have some fun and it gets heated, but we love it. Yeah.

Andrew:

I want to talk a bit more about AI in the general sense, but specifically maybe, maybe GiaAI is somehow integrated into Otto Media. Maybe you can talk about that. Maybe you know about your stance on the use of AI among other team members, among other departments. Do you have, maybe did you have like a meeting, corporate meeting saying like, okay, this is what we’re going to do? 

Because for example, at SE Ranking, we’re thinking of how to optimize our processes and leave that human expertise in, but just… still every day we’re talking about, okay, maybe somebody can record their voice and the AI can just use that voice and will no longer need to just waste, spend four hours recording something. So just like addressing these small issues, and I wanted you to talk about what the current situation is at Otto Media. Yeah, so just if you could address that, that’d be great.

Callum:

I’m working with Akshit now who’s my AI dream partner. And one thing that we’ve had this conversation, the importance of being able to leverage content to push it into so many different formats with the use of AI and repurposing all of our content. 

So for example, this podcast, the key things that we’ve spoken about can then be transferred from the transcript, pushed into a blog post that’s really interesting targeting certain areas. You can then attach the video, which then can be cut up to shorts. Then we can use that information as thought leadership to then post to your LinkedIn. And so it’s this endless cycle and being able to figure out how to leverage AI to do that is so important. 

Where we’re at now is trying to, well, with the launch of Veo3 through Google, the important, just the fact that the AI can produce the most amazing, most real looking avatars, which is me, which is hilarious. And I had some fun with it just last night with my wife. I mean, it can only be eight seconds. So we’re not quite there yet where we can have AI unless there’s something, you know, that I don’t please tell me offline. That would be great. But being able to replicate yourself as AI to then produce the content to say, will have, we’ll be able to scrape certain, I mean, I won’t go into the specifics, but we’re able to stay on top of trends of what’s happening and what research is being done and how SEO is moving forward. 

And then take that information, sit with it, work with AI to think how can this impact where we’re currently at today? And then we write about it and talk about it. And that’s going to allow you to really stand out in the communities as quite a leader. So some really cool stuff there as well. 

So how we blend for us right now, we’re working on building a SaaS platform that’s helping service-based businesses utilize and harness the power of AI to help generate more leads. 

That’s the biggest pain point that I’m seeing with so many service businesses that I speak to is that they don’t, there are so many things and opportunities missed. For example, I got my car serviced just the other week only to realize that we, every year in New South Wales, you need to get a pink slip. And we know every year what date that’s going to be because it’s in the system of the mechanic. When I asked him and he was talking to me about it’s getting tough out there and times are getting yet slowing down as it’s harder than ever to get our books filled that he’s got this amazing bank of contacts, phone numbers, emails that haven’t been leveraged when you know exactly when they have that card due for that pink slip and automate that get that. 

So, that’s one amazing thing we’re going to be sorting out as part of AI and I want it to be affordable that’s going to truly help them because there’s just so much cool stuff. A cake shop, I was doing an e-commerce website for a cake shop only to realize that they’ve got over a thousand people that they know when their birthday is, but there’s nothing automated or put in there to then get that sale. Every year there’s an extra thousand cakes at a minimum. 

So yeah, there’s so many opportunities where you can help people there and pushing for Google reviews, I mean service-based businesses are too busy to learn SEO or to understand it. So we try to make it simple, but there are a few things that will really help get their phone ring and big ones for that is like local SEO and Google Business Profile and even just, just pushing out using AI to leverage that, to get reviews and having them responded to. And it’s all content rich. So Google’s always watching, even through your responses, it’s going to really take on board what, what you’re saying to, help leverage where you found and what you found for. So yeah, that’s how we lose using GiaAI. It’s more of a fun thing through just my passion of trying to push the limits.

Maksym:

That’s fascinating. There are so many low-hanging fruits, especially with the discovery of AI and its everyday use in SEO. So apart from that AI lead generation project that you’re working on right now, are there any other special initiatives? Not so much for a GiaAI only, but maybe for Otto Media Groups as well, and that you really hope to implement maybe the next five years? Maybe it’s like a very far-fetched plan, but you got it already.

Callum:

You’re asking really interesting questions. 

Maksym:

I really hope so.

Callum:
It’s funny. The first thing I thought of, I’ll like the iPad was designed before the iPhone, but the iPad came out after the iPhone, which means that the iPad was parked because Steve Jobs found there was a better way and a better solution that people, the customers need this because it’s going to change the world. 

The reason I started AI was not to build this software. However, what we are working towards is using AI to really help digital PR and being able to know what’s happening in the world, know what’s going on, being able to pitch out to the journalists and tell them the stories and be able to give, have an amazing bank of awesome comments from your clients that you can leverage as experts in that field. Yeah, I’m pouring out a lot of amazing info here. It’s all available. It’s all there. You can take it. You can take that information and automate it. 

You know, just through the trend of, let’s say, through our supermarket, there was a massive outbreak of E. coli, which is, yeah, people got sick with the salads. Food safety searches skyrocketed over 500% and straight away we knew about it. As soon as that spike happened, we knew that straight away that trend was linked to that topic in Australia that we knew that we were going to write about food safety in the industry of cafes and restaurants. 

And as that, you’re able to pitch these amazing stories. These journalists were able to cover these stories from local business owners who are our clients and they get mentioned and they get free PR and it was an amazing outcome and from there it’s growing. So we are building something amazing there. So watch that space. I reckon it’s about 12 months away.

Andrew:

Alright, Callum, we’re gonna take it to the quick-fire round. We have a couple of questions. Don’t think too much on them. What’s one lesson from your DJ days that still influences your business decisions today?

Callum:

Be real, be authentic. It’s amazing that I get booked. I’m this sort of fat balding DJ that’s getting up there in age as well. Yet I’m still being booked out at twice the cost of the nearest DJ closest to me. That’s way younger, way better looking and probably a better DJ than me too. But I am authentic. I am real. I’m doing it to give a show and a performance, but what you see is what you get. I really, don’t hide online with, yeah, you’ll know exactly what you’re hiring when you get DJ Callum Gracie.

Andrew:

If Otto Media Group were a superhero, what would its superpower be and why?

Callum:

Understanding true pain points and not needing to figure it out because right now we need to ask the deep questions.

Andrew:

Nice! You had that one in the pocket, ready to go. Awesome. Max, you want to add a little more? 

Maksym:

Yes, I have two more for you, Callum. So what’s one skill you believe every digital marketer should actually have or hone to stay relevant in the industry?

Callum:

Try and break it. As a worker, try and push the systems and innovate. I will reward my team for any time that they can save in the funnels, in the journey for our clients. If they can save us 10 hours, then I’m going to be rewarding them for that. And I encourage that. And we sometimes fall flat on our face too. And it was a massive disaster. Everyone lost, but we can just, we love that we did it. And I just cherish them for that. And it’s just the learning experience. 

So I just say as a worker, follow your heart and always learn and be in a team environment that cherishes that and cherishes you as a person and who you are and what you stand for and what you value. I think you need to, everyone’s individual and you need to love them for who they are. And ask them the questions to know exactly, truly what they value and what they want for a long-term relationship.

Maksym:

That’s a good one. And what’s the most memorable piece of advice you’ve ever received? And how do you believe it has affected your life or your career? Let’s be more specific. 

Callum:

That’s Gary V, mate. We’re all going to die. So fuck it. Do it anyway and go for it and give it your all. Yeah, as I yeah, you’re going to die. So what the heck?

Andrew:

Yeah, ending it on a lighter note. Yeah, hopefully it’s not a surprise for anybody out there. Yeah, we’re just here to make an impact, leave our footprint. Yeah. Alright!

Callum:

That’s going to be the reckoning of this podcast. You’re all going to die.

Andrew:

Yeah, great soundbite! 

Maksym:

We should definitely title it. 

Andrew:

Hook people in from the get-go. Alright, Callum. This has been excellent, a great talk. We’re going to do the outro here and say that that’s a wrap for this episode of the SEO Agency Rollercoaster Podcast. A huge thank you to Otto Media Group’s very own Callum Gracie for letting us pick his brain. 

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